so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? It was mandatory post-1924. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Ancion Marx the 20th century. These include the If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. We have provided you The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . I can send pictures of it. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. firearms. Still, this company firmly has its roots in the good old U.S.A. John Moses Browning is a legend of firearms history. Quick Facts Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. Comblain H. J. this book online and pay it through Paypal. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. Ancion DD & Fils As I've said, I'm not an expert. Bury Jules. Can you send me some, Ed? You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. Bernard Victor & Cie Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. The Modern Shotgun. Very helpfull once again. . Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. . Please - no questions about your old guns. Clment-Neumann The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. I recently decided to clean it up. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. Bodson N. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. How do I price this piece? Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. Burlet . Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Courard I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. or E.C. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Thank you for If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. No maker's name at all. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. Berleur Guillaume "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Your help is appreciated. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. Bodson TH. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. for identifying the acceptance and proof marks as it appears, many Braekers Charles & Cie Search. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum Christophe & Montigny Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Ithaca Gun Company: One of America's most successful gun makers. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. Comblain - Dorther Hubert Hi, Jeremy. We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Thanks Hause. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Beuret Frres Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. A "Greener" double? gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C %PDF-1.3 Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. Bischop Pierre St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. Belgian Arms cie It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. Paypal, Order Email: Info@hlebooks.com If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. 1860-1870. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Ever seen that? Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Many thanxPS:. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. JavaScript is disabled. Bettonville - Fontaine are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. Hi Gerard and everyone! Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Bernard Henri Eugne Thomas Jefferson. ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? CLEMENT, J. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. 254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. to share our findings by this means of communication. Bernard Lambert If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. Bayet Frres A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. Boden There's no indication of gauge. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. 1870-1898. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Belgian Liege gunmakers Clment Walter Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. These firearms That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. Charlier Ch. In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information . Colleye Henri Joseph It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Can anybody shed some light here? Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). "Any maker's name or place of origin? But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. 1899-2011 Modern Guns. stream A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Collings Hadelin Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . OldGuns Newsletter . Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? It is was built using a very thick #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Very long barrel. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M).
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